http://blogoforum.com/tag/dkrukovsky+programming Talk about dkrukovsky and programming http://blogoforum.com/tag/article+development+dkrukovsky+framework+java+jsf+link+programming+talkinghub+web/java-web-development-can-be-much-easier-then-it-is-now-350.html One of most respectful people in software loves JSF. But me not. Here's a discussion on interview with Gavin King: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=39214 Gavin King is author of most widely used Java persistence framework. Enough to say about Gavin to state he has some respect. Unfortunately this time he provided mostly subjective and questionable arguments. Here are my subjective thoughts. I wrote a bit about JSF before: http://talkinghub.com/message/153.html#message What I felt trying to build this app with JSF is simply that I can be more productive. Web development should be extremely easy comparing to GUI development. Why? Simply because almost all we are working with is just text! And all the stuff is (cross-platform) standard defined years ago! No platform-dependent line-by-line or pixel-by-pixel drawing, no system-dependent user and other events, and who knows what else stuff to deal with in the world of GUI clients. This is why we have so little GUI frameworks. This is why we have so many web frameworks. Because the web development is generally easier then GUI client development. So while working with JSF I was unproductive even comparing to Swing development. Yes I used uncommon nowhere recommended approach using JSF in my app. I was using it with HTML templates, without XML configs, without additional JavaBean layer, and with high number of custom components. My development was going a lot slower then the same thing could be using Swing. Both MyFaces and Sun's JSF RI source code quality is big opportunity for improvement. MyFaces JSF implementation worked buggy with my HTML templates so I ended up with tricky combination of 3rd party MyFaces custom component library and Sun's reference JSF implementation. Yeah, weird! "Something is wrong" I started to think. "We have cross-platform, standard, very simple text technology (HTTP) comparing to Swing - so why I am so slow comparing to Swing?" So I decided to move forward. I just throw off the entire UI layer I wrote at that time except my HTML templates. I looked at Tapestry but lot of XML configs and long learning curve scared me away. How many pages that book on Tapestry does have? Just no time for it. I started with plain servlets and for just one day I had my UI powered by my own small library. No XML configs, no additional layers, no "expression language". I fed it with my HTML templates I already had and it started working. And I felt much comfortable with what I wrote. Do you know this nice feeling when you are confident in what has been made by your own hands? When you know it will work as you desire, and you can modify it as you desire, and nothing stops you and you can do just everything you would need. And it works as you see. Now development is so extremely simple that I can change HTML List to HTML Table or HTML DIV with subDivs without touching Java code at all, simply by modifying the template. Another side effect I got was execution speed - requests started to process a lot faster. Good for the future. Interesting note. I looked at Wicket framework recently. Looks pretty similar to what I did by myself. By the way - thanks to JSF and other today's web frameworks - this knowledge helped me a lot to build my UI layer fast. Do you have experience using JSF with HTML templates? Denis Krukovsky. - 1 reply Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:00:29 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/article+development+dkrukovsky+framework+java+jsf+link+programming+talkinghub+web/java-web-development-can-be-much-easier-then-it-is-now-350.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/code+development+dkrukovsky+generation+programming/re-re-code-generation-489.html hmm my explanation is not very clear so I posted more info with some example on Artima: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=106&thread=152273#197859 See it rephrazed. You have DataMapper code which does the job. Now some data (sql scheme) has changed and you rewrite DataMapper code to do the job according to the new scheme. You start to think about writing a generator which will take sql scheme and generate DataMapper according to sql scheme changes. Now instead of writing generator you can think about writing code which will take sql scheme, handle its changes and do the job! Should be easier alot. I will not touch ROR since I know little about it. Denis Krukovsky. - 1 reply Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:10:59 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/code+development+dkrukovsky+generation+programming/re-re-code-generation-489.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/code+development+dkrukovsky+generation+link+programming/re-code-generation-450.html I think you might be missing the point of code generation. You don't write a code generator to get a job done... you write it to get a job done MANY TIMES. If you are able to write code that does something and does it well, why not write a generator that can reproduce that code (and even with customizable situation specific variations) again for you the next time you encounter a similar problem? Rail's generators are there to save you from having to reinvent the wheel every time you want to work on a project. Web projects have fundamentally simliar basic frameworks. Why spend time and effort rebuilding that framework every time you need to pop out a website? Spend your time and effort on the stuff that makes the website unique or innovative instead. - 2 replies Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:36:16 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/code+development+dkrukovsky+generation+link+programming/re-code-generation-450.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/dkrukovsky+frameworks+humor+link+programming+software/re-why-i-hate-frameworks-by-benjismith-405.html For such a simple application a servlet is of curse valuable. JSF comes into play if you are writing more complex web applications. Nevertheless i guess this app would be very easy to develop with JSF. There would also be several advantages like support for JSR 168 portlets for instance. - 1 reply Sat, 01 Apr 2006 12:37:58 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/dkrukovsky+frameworks+humor+link+programming+software/re-why-i-hate-frameworks-by-benjismith-405.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/code+development+dkrukovsky+generation+link+programming/code-generation-417.html Bill Venners ( http://www.artima.com/weblogs/index.jsp?blogger=bv ) wrote "Code Generation: The Real Lesson of Rails" : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=152273 I haven't dig deep into Rails. Maybe code generation might be useful somewhere. But in general case, here is a simple statement for you to discuss. If you can write code which takes some data and generates another code which then does the job. Then you should be absolutely able to write code which takes data and does the job. Why take extra code generation step? Do you have examples which break this statement? Denis Krukovsky. - 1 reply Fri, 17 Mar 2006 10:47:31 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/code+development+dkrukovsky+generation+link+programming/code-generation-417.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/dkrukovsky+frameworks+humor+link+programming+software/why-i-hate-frameworks-by-benjismith-153.html Some great writing by BenjiSmith: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431.12 This application was written using no frameworks. I picked up JSF initially but I dropped it as I get more experienced with it: http://write-software.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-more-jsf.html Denis Krukovsky. - 1 reply Thu, 09 Mar 2006 04:23:06 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/dkrukovsky+frameworks+humor+link+programming+software/why-i-hate-frameworks-by-benjismith-153.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/book+dkrukovsky+java+link+programming/bruce-eckel-finished-thinking-in-java-4th-ed-322.html Bruce Eckel finished new edition of his famous "Thinking in Java": http://mindview.net/Books/TIJ4 This time he decided not to put a free edition online, but first three editions are available. I'm glad they were. Denis Krukovsky. Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:13:50 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/book+dkrukovsky+java+link+programming/bruce-eckel-finished-thinking-in-java-4th-ed-322.html