http://blogoforum.com/tag/framework Talk about framework http://blogoforum.com/tag/article+development+dkrukovsky+framework+java+jsf+link+programming+talkinghub+web/java-web-development-can-be-much-easier-then-it-is-now-350.html One of most respectful people in software loves JSF. But me not. Here's a discussion on interview with Gavin King: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=39214 Gavin King is author of most widely used Java persistence framework. Enough to say about Gavin to state he has some respect. Unfortunately this time he provided mostly subjective and questionable arguments. Here are my subjective thoughts. I wrote a bit about JSF before: http://talkinghub.com/message/153.html#message What I felt trying to build this app with JSF is simply that I can be more productive. Web development should be extremely easy comparing to GUI development. Why? Simply because almost all we are working with is just text! And all the stuff is (cross-platform) standard defined years ago! No platform-dependent line-by-line or pixel-by-pixel drawing, no system-dependent user and other events, and who knows what else stuff to deal with in the world of GUI clients. This is why we have so little GUI frameworks. This is why we have so many web frameworks. Because the web development is generally easier then GUI client development. So while working with JSF I was unproductive even comparing to Swing development. Yes I used uncommon nowhere recommended approach using JSF in my app. I was using it with HTML templates, without XML configs, without additional JavaBean layer, and with high number of custom components. My development was going a lot slower then the same thing could be using Swing. Both MyFaces and Sun's JSF RI source code quality is big opportunity for improvement. MyFaces JSF implementation worked buggy with my HTML templates so I ended up with tricky combination of 3rd party MyFaces custom component library and Sun's reference JSF implementation. Yeah, weird! "Something is wrong" I started to think. "We have cross-platform, standard, very simple text technology (HTTP) comparing to Swing - so why I am so slow comparing to Swing?" So I decided to move forward. I just throw off the entire UI layer I wrote at that time except my HTML templates. I looked at Tapestry but lot of XML configs and long learning curve scared me away. How many pages that book on Tapestry does have? Just no time for it. I started with plain servlets and for just one day I had my UI powered by my own small library. No XML configs, no additional layers, no "expression language". I fed it with my HTML templates I already had and it started working. And I felt much comfortable with what I wrote. Do you know this nice feeling when you are confident in what has been made by your own hands? When you know it will work as you desire, and you can modify it as you desire, and nothing stops you and you can do just everything you would need. And it works as you see. Now development is so extremely simple that I can change HTML List to HTML Table or HTML DIV with subDivs without touching Java code at all, simply by modifying the template. Another side effect I got was execution speed - requests started to process a lot faster. Good for the future. Interesting note. I looked at Wicket framework recently. Looks pretty similar to what I did by myself. By the way - thanks to JSF and other today's web frameworks - this knowledge helped me a lot to build my UI layer fast. Do you have experience using JSF with HTML templates? Denis Krukovsky. - 1 reply Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:00:29 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/article+development+dkrukovsky+framework+java+jsf+link+programming+talkinghub+web/java-web-development-can-be-much-easier-then-it-is-now-350.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/framework/presentation-framework-need-8337.html Hello, I am currently using iPlanet 6.0 with Struts and it is not going too great with all the bugs in iPlanet. Struts won't execute all that well with iPlanet. Searching the web has revealed lots of iPlanet bugs with regards to running Struts. So I am scrapping it. Basically I am in need of a lightweight presentation framework (or end-to-end framework) that can run on iPlanet 6.0 and is compatible with the following java technology specifications: Java 2 SDK EJB 1.1 JDBC - J2SE JNDI 1.2 Servlet 2.2 JSP 1.1 Since iPlanet 6.0 only supports the above specs, I need a light java framework that will be compatible with the above. Any ideas would be beneficiail. Thanks Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:16:13 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/framework/presentation-framework-need-8337.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/code+development+dkrukovsky+generation+programming/re-re-code-generation-489.html hmm my explanation is not very clear so I posted more info with some example on Artima: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=106&thread=152273#197859 See it rephrazed. You have DataMapper code which does the job. Now some data (sql scheme) has changed and you rewrite DataMapper code to do the job according to the new scheme. You start to think about writing a generator which will take sql scheme and generate DataMapper according to sql scheme changes. Now instead of writing generator you can think about writing code which will take sql scheme, handle its changes and do the job! Should be easier alot. I will not touch ROR since I know little about it. Denis Krukovsky. - 1 reply Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:10:59 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/code+development+dkrukovsky+generation+programming/re-re-code-generation-489.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/frameworks/re-to-jsf-or-not-to-jsf-3257.html I find it interesting that you don't use any framework here, as the frameworks can save a LOT of time. And if you write your own software from scratch, if you do it properly, you end up with something similar to a framework anyway. - 1 reply Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:11:03 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/frameworks/re-to-jsf-or-not-to-jsf-3257.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/framework+java+jsf+programming+web/to-jsf-or-not-to-jsf-547.html I think you are referring to this article: http://talkinghub.com/forum/message/article+development+dkrukovsky+framework+java+jsf+link+programming+talkinghub+web/java-web-development-can-be-much-easier-then-it-is-now-350.html Thanks for your opinion. Would you provide a concrete sample? See, I dismissed JSF not because JSF development was too complex. I dismissed JSF because it was unneccessary complex. And inflexible, even for such a simple app. Note that I was trying unorthodoxal approach using plain html templates, minimum xml configs and no javabean layer. JSF + this approach failed for me, so I moved to better tool. If you are ok with using jsp pages then JSF can work well for you. This is just me finding more productive to work with plain html. Denis Krukovsky. - 1 reply Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:15:13 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/framework+java+jsf+programming+web/to-jsf-or-not-to-jsf-547.html http://blogoforum.com/tag/dkrukovsky+frameworks+humor+link+programming+software/re-why-i-hate-frameworks-by-benjismith-405.html For such a simple application a servlet is of curse valuable. JSF comes into play if you are writing more complex web applications. Nevertheless i guess this app would be very easy to develop with JSF. There would also be several advantages like support for JSR 168 portlets for instance. - 1 reply Sat, 01 Apr 2006 12:37:58 GMT http://blogoforum.com/tag/dkrukovsky+frameworks+humor+link+programming+software/re-why-i-hate-frameworks-by-benjismith-405.html